Good Morning Everybody,
We had a great day off yesterday. Man, we all need one of those now and then. We are not too much into the gambling scene out here in Las Vegas, but we love touring the surrounding areas. The Valley of Fire and Mount Charleston are our favorites.
The thing that surprised me the most on our travels yesterday was seeing Lake Mead at, get this, 100 feet lower than normal. The signage says the lake is NOT drying up. The low level it just the result of the "draught years" in Colorado whose waters flow into Lake Mead.
OK, had enough of a geography lesson for today? Then on with today's post. I had planned to continue on with the series I started last week entitled, "Keeping The Faith: My 15 Steps For Shooting Weddings In Catholic Churches" [link] but I'm holding off till next week to continue the series.
A few things have happened over the last week that I think need some serious discussion. So, I hope you'll hang in here with me and hear what I have to say today. Here we go.
How Much Of A Professional Are You?
Everyone reading this blog knows that I've been doing wedding photography for quite a while. I've seen lots of changes in our profession over the many years, but none have been so game changing as with the introduction of digital cameras.
In the wedding business, it even took a few years for many of the pros to make the switch. I personally made the switch to digital in 2000. It was scary just like anything else you try that is new. No problem, we made the switch, and I have to tell you, I would never go back to film.
In the wedding industry, in the early days of digital, things were pretty calm. Many were making their switch and the competition from new photographers was a little more even keeled than in today's market.
But things started to change about two years ago. Cameras got cheaper, Facebook got famous, everybody started blogging, Craig's List became popular, and cameras got even cheaper still. Now everyone with a new Digital Rebel or Nikon D3000 wanted a piece of the wedding market.
Don't leave yet - it gets even more interesting, hence the topic of today's post - "How Much Of A Professional Are You?"
The bridal plaintiff basically wanted a refund of $1000 of the $1300 she paid to the "professional photog". The judge awarded the bride, not the $1000 she asked for, but $2500 in damages!!!
My first intent was to post this as kind of a "humor" piece - lousy photographer gets what she deserves. But, upon reflecting on it I decided it was a much more serious issue that that. Here's why…
Hit the Read More..." link below for the video and the rest of the story.
The "pro photographer" was shooting the wedding with a Canon Rebel with a "kit" lens, had the images processed at WalMart, and delivered then to the bride in the WalMart parking lot. The sign of a true "professional" - right? Wrong!!!
Judge Joe Brown didn't see it that way either asking the photographer why she wasn't shooting with a pro camera like a Canon 1D, 5D, or 7D. It seems the judge knows his cameras and a little something about wedding photography, too. He didn't come right out and say it, but it looked to me like the judge may have shot a wedding or two.
Hit the PLAY button to watch the short video:
OK, like I said, I planned to just post it for the "giggle" but then some thing happened while at WPPI. I attended a program by one of the presenters and was surprised by what I heard. Not by what the presenter said, but what I heard after she said it.
She mentioned that in her early days of shooting she used a Canon Rebel. About 25% of the room cheered her remark - they must be Canon Rebel shooters too - at least that was my impression of their response. It seems to me that this section of the audience felt vindicated by their use of this amateur camera for shooting events that should be shot with professional gear.
That seems both scary and sad to me. A wedding is a once in a lifetime event for most folks out there. When a photographer books a wedding, they assume a lot of responsibility for the outcome of their photographic result. How is it they can feel they are delivering "pro" results with "amateur" cameras.
DAZNOTE:
That presenter by the way, now shoots with Canon's top line EOS Canon 1D cameras.
This whole attitude; "I've got my Canon Rebel or Nikon D50 and some business cards. I've got my Facebook page, I like shooting pictures, I've got my blog, etc. , etc., etc. I must be a professional." To me it shows a total lack of professionalism when any photographer engages a client for the job of shooting the wedding and shows up as "Amateur Anne or Andy".
We have been witnessing the "cheapening" of wedding photography over the last 2 - 3 years. It has put good studios out of business, sacrificed quality photography for brides, created an entire era of paperless, picture-less couples, given wedding photographers and wedding photography a bad name, and does a major disservice to all the real "pros" in our business.
So to those who cheered the use on the Rebel as a wedding camera, I suggest you think twice before booking you next wedding. I suggest you ask yourself just how much of a real "pro" you are. Do you really know your gear, your lenses, your lighting? Do you really know what shots to capture at the wedding? Do you know how to handle yourself in an emergency situation like when your gear fails? Can you still capture the images? These are just a few of the questions real professionals know how to answer.
If you are having trouble answering any part of them, you may want to change that or you too just may find yourself in front of Judge Joe Brown.
-'Nough said
Food For Thought ---
_____________________________________________
Hey everybody, that's it for me today. Feel free to jump in on today's conversation by leaving your remarks in the "Comments" section below.
I'll plan to see everyone on Monday back in Cincy. We've got one more day of relaxation in Las Vegas and I want to see if I can win some more pixels;~)
Adios, -David
David,
ReplyDeleteWhen you first switched to digital, was your first camera any better than a Canon Rebel?
In 10 years, will you be mocked for using a 5D MKII for a wedding?
I would be interested to see a lineup of how yesteryear's 'pro' equipment lines up to current 'amateur' equipment.
Thank you for this post! I want to be a true professional!
ReplyDeleteSo are you saying that you don't believe you can get professional results from an Canon Rebel/Nikon D50?
ReplyDeleteDear David, I am a big fan, so please do not take this the wrong way, and I do not mean any offense, but don't you shoot with non-professional grade lenses? Doesn't quality lens/glass have as much of an impact on the quality and "professionalism" of the photos as the camera body?
ReplyDeleteI agree with your argument about using professional equipment. Was just wondering about lenses.
I'm not a pro, nor have I ever shot a wedding. But when I first watched that video I couldn't help but think, "Who gives a shit what camera she used? Let the photos speak for themselves." If the defendant had used a Nikon D3s, it wouldn't have changed the outcome because the camera is largely immaterial to the resulting photographs.
ReplyDeleteNow perhaps in her case the pictures were blatantly unacceptable, but I think there is a logical flaw in the proposition that, "if a wedding is shot on an 'amateur' DSLR camera, then the wedding pictures are necessarily sub-par".
Take yourself for example (David Ziser). Didn't you used to shoot parts of weddings using a Fuji S2 Pro? Or using a Canon 30D or whatever that first landmark model was? Today that technology might be laughably behind our current 'amateur' DSLRs, but back then it was leading edge and perfectly acceptable.
I guess my main bullet point is: let the pictures speak for themselves. If I were told that Jerry Ghionis would shoot my wedding but on the condition that he use a 2-year old Canon Rebel, I would say 'hell yeah'.
What everybody completely missed was --- Did the work match the portfolio shown? ----
ReplyDeleteIf it did, then the bride got what she wanted. If not, then she should get her money back.
The gear may not have been up to the task at hand, but that is secondary to the port match.
Brides are picking based on price. Two years ago there was a bridal forum that told how to get you pictures for free. Find a noob wedding shooter, scan all the proof prints and/or copy the proof cd, then sue the photographer because they didn't know what they were doing and ruined your wedding. The number of brides that thought that was a good idea was staggering. Theft and purger are acceptable means to save money?
I don't shoot weddings because of my physical limitations. I was going to, even started looking for someone to apprentice to but then life happens. I shoot other stuff and somebody saw my work and asked me to shoot their wedding. FOR FREE. They would even give me some blank CDs so it wouldn't cost me anything. You're not working now so you have free time right ? Digital is free right? That's what all the internet says. She was going to spend $900 on a cake!!
While I am on this rant, let me state the digital is not free. Digital is more expensive in both time and money than film. I actually saw the cost analysis for a 5 year period of film v. digital. I can't find it and neither can google.
As to using the Rebel - There are people I know that bought the Rebel because the 50D was too big for them to hold and operate.
Judge Joe Brown shows he knows what he's talking about when he mentions he keeps his own gear in a Pelican Case. I like it, this photographer clearly had a lack of knowledge and professionalism. But, I also think there is another interesting side to this story. The Bride should have done her homework, Should have had a contract that protected her and the photographer, and should expect to get what she pays for. When you shop around and hire the cheapest photographer, you will get cheap results.
ReplyDeleteFunny that a "Pro" photographer can complain about "Amateur" photographers hurting the business - BUT - has no problem writing a book, selling live presentations, blog, give webinars, sell training DVD's & actions, do Kelby Training videos, run week long seminars - AND THEN - turn around and complain the markets flooded with amateurs.
ReplyDeleteSounded to me that the applause came for using of the a rebel (not good) in a wedding as a professional.
ReplyDeleteI'm thinking it's less about the camera and more about the skill, training and experience of the photographers. The "Rebel" like camera's of today are significantly better than the early digital cameras used by Pro Photographers of not that many years ago. I'm thinking that the same photographer almost certainly wouldn't make really any better an image with a Pro level camera of today. So I think the issue is really about an amatuer posing as a pro.
ReplyDeleteTo some extent I agree. In general you need a pro to do your wedding if you want great results. However, the Rebel is a great camera. If you know how to take great shots, you're able to pull it off, even with such a camera. I know because I shot several weddings last year with a Canon Rebel. All of my clients were more then satisfied with the results. The past few weeks I've had 4 calls of people who had seen the results, and are asking if I'd make their album as well when they get married later this year.
ReplyDeleteI believe more in the gift of the photographer. If he's up to it, the camera won't matter that much.
Also, lenses are way more important. I can cover most of the ceremony with only my 17-55 2.8 and 70-200 2.8. Add a little strobist technique and some primes and you got a great set.
True, a pro camera (which will follow soon) will make the images even better (and greater cropping options etc.) but don't be fooled:
A pro camera doesn't make you a pro photograper. Likewise, an amateur camera, doesn't make you an amateur.
Mr. Ziser, you seem to be doing somewhat of an about face with todays column. Is it really about the equipment or the photographers use/mastery of that equipment. Just because someone uses a lower classification of camera doesn't mean he will do a bad job. As you say, it is how he uses it that matters. I'm sure you could take the cheapest camera out there and do a fine job at a wedding. What lenses and flashes and other equipment should be considered too. The camera is but one part of the total package. I'm sure that even some people would consider the 7D not a "pro" camera, but you do wonders with it.
ReplyDeleteAll in all I basically agree with what I think you're trying to say. I just think you put a little too much emphasis on the camera itself, and not quite enough on the photographers skills.
This comment has been removed by the author.
ReplyDelete"...those who cheered the use on the Rebel as a wedding camera, I suggest you think twice before booking you next wedding."
ReplyDeleteC'mon now, David... how many weddings have you shot with your 20D/40D/50D/7D? The "old" Rebel XT has the same sensor as the 20D and 30D, more or less. If you put the same glass in front of them (or any of the Rebel series) you'll get the same image depending on your ISO situation. Whatever happened to "It's the photographer, not the gear"? One should let their demeanor and images speak toward their professionalism, not the badge on the front or the extra bells and whistles beyond aperture, shutter and ISO.
In this case I'd say it was the photographer. Her attitude was unprofessional, seeming lack of knowledge about her gear (not knowing how slow her "other" lens was? Judge JB knows!) is unprofessional and her lens selection doesn't inspire confidence to those who know of the Canon kit lens.
I guess I'm just saying, don't bash my dear old Rebel ;) Then again I personally wouldn't a shoot wedding with it... or any other camera for that matter. Not my thing.
There are so many things to mention from that video... but not knowing the lens aperture is more than enough.
ReplyDeleteIt saddens me because lots of pretty good photographers are suffering to get U$200 gigs and these two managed to rip the poor girl off for U$1000. That's insane.
Hi David,
ReplyDeleteAnother very interesting post! Any spots still available in your April Master's Class?
Ryan
Her attitude is/was HORRIBLE....and a Canon XTI for a wedding with kit lens, seriously!?!? What shocked me was that she didn't know how fast her 70-300mm lens was! I agree with the ruling of the judge AND, I was very impressed with his knowledge of photography! I'm sure he did a few weddings of his own! :)
ReplyDeleteHope you had a GREAT time in Las Vegas! I can't wait to go again (been there three times for ISCS Real Estate Conventions)....however, at the time, I wasn't in photography like I am today.
I can tell you are FIRED up! :)
Dave,
ReplyDeleteI think what bothers at least some of us is the legal aspects of this, together with the fact that either you or Joe McNally could produce extraordinary pictures with a Rebel or a point and shoot. I think Don Giannatti sums up a very valid position in his post here:
http://www.lighting-essentials.com/throwing-other-photographers-under-the-bus-may-be-great-fun-but-is-it-a-good-thing/
From a legal perspective, the judge totally misses the boat over what is or is not on trial. From a photographic perspective, his points are also mute as far as I am concerned.
It is the photographer, and not the camera that makes the shot. This is the most simple truth of this industry. A $5,000 camera and lens kit does not make you a Pro, nor does it make you take great pictures.
ReplyDeleteDon't get me wrong, I hate people with their 1st SLR calling themselves Pros as much as anyone else, but some of my best pics have been with a G9 (much better for candids than a big SLR) and my old AE-1 and film. The camera does not make the photographer good, the photographer makes the camera good.
Wow...I'm at a total loss of words.
ReplyDeleteSo what is it that the Canon Rebel is not capable of doing that is needed at a wedding. If someone knows how to use manual settings, a flash etc etc...why do they have to have a 5D??
ReplyDeleteHallejuah Brother! It's about time someone took these amateurs masquerading as pros to task. I'm so sick of how our product has been cheapened by these people.
ReplyDeleteThis show was as real as "law & order"...they probably based it on the UK story.
ReplyDeleteThis is a good writeup of some of the legal aspects: http://www.lighting-essentials.com/throwing-other-photographers-under-the-bus-may-be-great-fun-but-is-it-a-good-thing/
Not to say the photographer was being professional about it (that was a lousy setup to bring to that low light scenario), but the "judge" most definitely was not (and the "judgements" are actually paid by the show's producers)...
Actually, the low light, no flash scenario brings up a good point that I've been meaning to ask. What do you run in that situation? I notice you don't seem to run much fast glass except the 70-200/2.8 which you use for portraiture. The other lenses would be fairly slow in venues that disallow use of flash...
Hallejuah Brother! It's about time someone took these amateurs masquerading as pros to task. I'm so sick of how our product has been cheapened by these people.
ReplyDeleteGood post. I can say for myself that I did not enter into this until I felt I could handle the issues and questions you pose.
ReplyDeleteAnd I'm constantly striving to learn and improve. Perhaps that itself is what makes pro's stand out from the "shoot and burners"!
I'm surprised that you are putting so much emphasis on the camera model. Pro's shot plenty of weddings with the 20D back in the day. The Rebel T1i is a far better camera in every respect than the 20D ever was.
ReplyDeleteI know that there are pro's out there that can do more with a Holga than I can do with my DSLR.
It's about what you know. If this photographer took lousy photos with her Rebel, I doubt she would have done any better with a 1D Mark IV.
It's funny...I am a Semi-Pro nature photographer (more semi than pro) and I shoot with a Nikon D80 with a Nikkor 50mm f/1.8 and an 18-200 3.5-5.6 VR II Lens. I have been asked many times to shoot weddings for my friends and/or family. My response is always the same. NO WAY!!! Maybe some day I will have the equipment to shoot a wedding or 2, but I barely have the equipment to shoot a mountain that couldn't move if it wanted to.
ReplyDeleteIt's sad that just anyone can claim to be a wedding photographer these days. I have been married for 9 years, but if I were to be getting married now, I think my first question would be; What equipment will you be using? Well...right after I ask; What do you charge?
Wow David I think you've opened the can and thrown worms all over the place. Maybe that was your intention:-)
ReplyDeleteFirst off I'm not a wedding photog, I shoot mainly portraits, but will shoot as a second shooter when invited.
I agree that shooting a wedding is a great responsibility and were I a wedding photographer I would do pretty much everything you value.
But that is not what the whole market is demanding. We cannot dictate to the market (brides) what they should and shouldn't be willing to buy.
You didn't say this but your arguments are of the kind that I heard 25 years ago at a trade show in London when a group of "professional wedding photographers" were seeking signatures on a petition to government to regulate the wedding photography market. They wanted licensing for photographers, awarded by said group, and for it to be illegal to practice without a license. An elite group who wanted to control who could enter "their" market.
What had led to this? The availability of cheap and good quality 35mm cameras and lenses.
Fortunately they failed. I don't know if you have the same idea and I'm not saying you do but the arguments are similar.
Question: Remember when you used to shoot weddings using a Hasselblad? Wasn't the argument that it was needed for the quality of the images? What happened to your quality standard at the time you switched to digital? I do not believe you were getting anything remotely similar on your framed enlargements from those early digital cameras.
Those early pro digital adopters were anticipating the marktet and positioning themselves to take advantage of opportunities. They abandoned their former quality standards. This is not a lot different to what you are criticising today.
There is still a free market in wedding photography and this is a good thing. It means clients can get the level of professionalism and service and photography they are willing to research and pay for. It also means there is room in the market for all those togs who are willing to find their niche.
From my experience there is little of importance in regard to shooting weddings that is important about pro level cameras other than the fact they are more rugged. It is true that a body might fail and if the tog has a backup body of the same type that is likely to suffice, even if both bodies are entry level cameras.
I think there are many reasons for being as professional as possible but that is not true of everyone shooting and it isn't a requirement of everyone who buys. And long may it remain so.
For me, the answer to the question "How much of a professional are you?" is "a 100% refund" if my clients are not happy with the images that I captured. The good pictures not always came out of the professional cameras ans lenses. Can you tell what kind of camera and lense are used to capture that image?
ReplyDeleteDavid, I have the upmost respect for you and your work, however it seems almost like the pot calling the kettle black. Your camera bodies are not Cannon's top of the line either. I'm very confident that you could do a nice job with a rebel. You also point out that you went with an f4 lens instead of the 2.8. You know better than anyone that it's not always the equipment that makes the pro. Sorry, but I think you missed the boat with this one. P.S. just got my copy of your new book...You didn't miss on that. Great job. Best wishes and God bless, Marty Fox.
ReplyDeleteWhile I agree with most comments in this post, I would like to say that there may be, whether intentional or unintentional, too much emphasis on what equipment to use or not to use in order to be considered a "professional." While capturing amazing photographs may partly be a byproduct of using high end gear, it is more a byproduct of knowing how to use it. Without going in to a long drawn-out case for my point, I will simply say that so-called amateur cameras can produce amazing images when "driven" by someone who knows how to use it and understands the elements that go in to capturing high quality images. On the flip side, an amateur using so-called professional cameras will still only get snapshots, at best, if they don't know what they're doing in the other areas of the process.
ReplyDeleteFirst I would like to say that I am writing this from my iPhone so I appologize for any typos.
ReplyDeleteI am writing this because what I just read here has really irritated me. I happen to be one of those Rebel guys you have mentioned, but I don't pretend to be a pro photographer. I don't feel bad for the person you wrote about. He deserves the concequences of his poor way of conducting buisness. But, let me ask you. Where are people supposed to start out? No one is going to give you the thousands of dollars of equipment to shoot weddings according to your workflow.
How terrible would it be to have a guy with a rebel and a couple of cheap lenses, a flash or two, and a friend helping out as an assistant shoot a wedding? Sure, the images could be a tad sharper or richer, but by how much? How much of that can be made up for if the Rebel shooter understands Photoshop?
Like I said, that guy wasn't what I am talking about. Unfortunately, you come accross as a grumpy old man who's upset that these young whipper-snappers are stealing your buisness with a fraction of the overhead. I think you are a master of your craft, but remember where you came from. Writing this way is a sure way to lose the readers like me who want to step up to your level. We don't need to read articles that say we're not good enough because of the camerabody we use.
A majority of your readers I'm sure shoot rebel cameras or their equivelents. Instead of looking down on them, try lowering a rope and showing people how to rise up to being a pro.
I expect to be flamed by some of your readers saying you are a great teacher. I'll admit you write and speak my words of wisdom, but you always do it with such a condecending tone. If you want Rebel users to stop shooting wedings offer a few suggestions on what they should shoot to try and generate the equipment and experience need to capture a wedding day.
I completely agree! I take every opportunity to upgrade my equipment. The "photographer" in the video shocked me by not knowing the speed of her lens. I use the 24-105 and 70-200 2.8 is usm and I know the capabilities of my lens. I have backup equipment of everything. I read everything I can and study images on a daily basis. I've suggested to clients as they were shopping for their photographer to ask about their equipment and it will tell you a lot about the photographer.
ReplyDelete"I've suggested to clients as they were shopping for their photographer to ask about their equipment and it will tell you a lot about the photographer."
ReplyDeleteHahaha, I love this logic. Can you imagine a client seeing crappy work but not caring because all that matters is how expensive his gear is? That only tells you how much he is in debt and needs to over charge you.
The only things that matter are: is your (photo) art good, can you deliver consistently, and do you have good reliable business practices. Anyone who thinks it's their camera equipment is a dead man. Nuff said.
I think the forum here is missing the point. When you market yourself as a professional (doctor, lawyer, mechanic, plumber, photographer), then your expertise needs to be professional. There's no doubt that Mr. Ziser could shoot his weddings with any camera and any lens... however... please understand that he KNOWS the capabilities of his equipment. (He's even said that the Newest Rebels would make a solid second camera.)
ReplyDeleteUnfortunately, the photographer did not seem to know the capabilities of her equipment. Just like a Doctor not knowing what script to write, like a lawyer not knowing what brief to draft, like an engineer not knowing the stress levels of construction materials, so is a photographer who doesn't know the capabilities of his or her equipment.
While weddings can be shot with a kit lens, how many professionally-minded photographers shoot the majority of their weddings with a kit lens (especially when you can rent equipment)? How many top lecturers and clinicians shot with a kit lens? But once again this is not about the equipment, but about the knowledge of the photographer. (And Walmart for prints? C'mon!)
The point is not necessarily the camera. Many comments have mentioned that David and Joe could do wonders with a Rebel XTi. Why is that? Because they know what they are doing. That is the point. The images that were shown were 'adequate." They were likely the best available from the wedding.
ReplyDeleteMore to the point was the photographer's unprofessional attitude and demeanor. Come on, I don't care if you have Walmart print the pictures. Don't deliver them in the Walmart parking lot! She was thoroughly unprofessional and posing as a professional. That is the point. Not just Walmart, but showing up unprepared for a low light situation. Not using a tripod. "You don't know until you get there," if you can use flash. If she had indeed done "hundreds" of weddings, she would have know that is pretty standard fare at the church. At least it is in Chicagoland.
David is trying to raise the skill of the Amateur Anne and Andy. But some people don't put the time and effort into improving. I have been doing this for 22 years and I still spend time daily checking blogs by David, Joe McNally, Dave Hobby at Strobist, and many others. I have friends at my experience level that are content to photograph the same way they did years ago. Old dogs, if you will. They are masters and they don't need to change.
The wedding landscape is changing. Brides don't know what is quality and what is crap. Heck, my wife shoots a photo of our grandson with the camera in her phone and prints it on our inkjet printer and frames it! It shows just how low the bar has gone. People are satisfied with that kind of quality.
I allready posted a comment before but I'm still stuck with one question:
ReplyDeleteShould I buy your book even if I only have a Rebel?
Really looking forward to your feedback after you've read all the reactions.
If you are shooting with a beginner's camera & lens you might be a fab photog but most likely you are a newbie & not near ready for the work that a wedding requires both technically & artistically. Anyone can set their camera on Auto & click. How many of you whiners ALWAYS shoot in manual, use off-camera flash, know why & when to use which lens for what purpose? Weddings are a unique beast, no "do overs", action is happening all around you all the time, light changes drastically even if you are standing in the same spot. Wedding photography is more than staging the bride & groom in front of a pretty sunset & clicking the shutter.Having the RIGHT equipment is absolutely a must. If you have to ask why u might be a beginne! At some point you will need a fast lens for light and/or DOF. My first camera was a film Rebel 2000. Great learning camera.(pssst, I even used the auto mode to start out)! I didn't attempt to shoot anything for money until I grew out of the Rebel. Remember it was film not digital. Time came to move up, saved my money, bought 2 Canon 1Ns & GOOD quality lens.I did lots of successful solo exhibitions, but not w/ anything from that Rebel. It was just a learning tool! I waited to move to digital till I could afford the camera that suited my style and subject. Why? Shutter lag time for one,write speed,sensor size (if you have to ask why you are not ready to go pro yet).I don't belittle the "Rebel" shooters,but if you want to play with the big boys get the proper equipment and by god learn how to use it! And you need 2 good camera bodies not 1 Rebel to shoot a wedding. All of you rabid dogs posters are the ones who THINK they are really good but most likely are not YET. Being a GOOD pro takes more than a quality camera and lens, but without them even a pro is at a disadvantage. Can you shoot a wedding with your newbie camera & not need PS or LR to "fix" them? I have fine art images made with a cheap $20 plastic film camera that are my best sellers, but it ain't my MAIN camera. My challenge to you whiners who think you're ready to shoot a wedding,pick up a FILM camera & shoot film for a year or more,no chimping,no fixing later in photoshop.Shoot,develop& print it.
ReplyDeleteWhen you can do that & produce consistent,properly exposed images & be able to HONESTLY critique your work,then maybe you can call yourself a pro. (ooo how about liability & equip.insurance, got that?)I am not knocking beginners or folks who don't have lots of $ to buy a higher end digi camera.We have all been there! I am berating those of you who don't know the difference & don't take wedding photography seriously. There are a RARE few who can pull off using low end products & produce amazing images, I say whatcha gonna do when the gig you took a deposit for suddenly goes down the drain cause the church is very dark, no flash allowed, your lens doesn't allow you a large aperture or fast low noise ISO, the tables in the reception are really close together & the bride, groom & wedding party are sitting at one long table, your "popup" flash ain't gonna save you. Many pros use lower end models like 7D, 60D, as backup bodies but certainly not as primary, it limits options & slows you down. Damn it! I missed the bride & groom kissing cause my camera was still writing to the card! Oh well, guess I can ask them to pose for me later and recreate that "magical" moment. Not!
ReplyDeletePOINT? If you don't have the money to invest in proper equipment for shooting weddings then you are not ready to shoot weddings. They are a whole different dog. You run your butt off for hours & when something goes wrong you damn well better be skilled enough to know what to do & not show panic. Start with a beginners camera, learn everything you can, shoot like crazy & when you find that your beginner camera is not fitting your style or needs & its time to buy a better camera then you're on your way to becoming a pro.
The market is flooded with so many who are no where near ready to be shooting weddings or any paying photo job. Someday they might be the next top wedding photog but not yet. First ya got some learnin' to do Lucy! Thumbs up David! Thumbs down to those of you who did not get what the man is saying and my sympathies to the bride who chooses you to trust with her special day. Can I have a do over please????
To those Rebel owners angered by David's post, re-read the second to last paragraph. If you can answer all of those questions -- plus a few other common sensical ones -- "yes", than YOU CAN SHOOT A WEDDING WITH A REBEL!!! If you can't answer them affirmatively, than don't.
ReplyDeleteThe logic applies to ALL cameras. There is a certain, albeit smaller crowd, that has the money for pro gear, but not the ability. They should ask themselves the same batch of questions, too.
Alright I have to comment again since a lot of you got a little annoyed that David bashed the Canon XT, etc... this is NOT a wedding camera, PERIOD!! Yes, it's a decent camera and it takes great pictures in the right conditions and environment but it's high ISO is lousy (anything past 400 is poor and you know you'll get as high as 1600 for low lighting weddigns!) and the low 8MP doesn't leave a whole lot of room for cropping and to stay at 300dpi , you won't get any larger then 8"x10" prints without starting to lose the DPI and that's without doing any cropping! I don't know about you but although I'm pretty good at getting decent crops on camera, I always have to adjust a tad more in photoshop only because I'm so darn picky..and yup, I lose image size a little....so, the Canon XT, XTI, XSI, etc aren't full-time wedding cameras and shouldn't be! They are great little cameras but if you are going to do loads of weddings, PLEASE reconsider your gear ASAP!
ReplyDeleteI've shot a wedding as a second photographer with my Canon XT, and although I turned out some pretty good pics, none could be blown very big...I got frustrated and not long after I got my Canon 50D.
The 50D has it's advantages v.s. the full frames...but do you all know what those are?!?!? If you don't, ..start studying a bit more and you'll find out why having both a crop camera (a decent one) and a full frame in your camera bag would be VERY beneficial for you.
Also, the fact that she didn't know how fast her 70-300mm lens was, that alone SCREAMS amateur. Her attitude was HORRIBLE, just completely unprofessional and disgusting! She was extremely disrespectful to the judge and customer.
The point that David is trying to make is that there's wedding photographers out there that are tarnishing the industry for the rest of you and it's FRUSTRATING! You cannot re-shoot a wedding. I understand that sometimes, the customer will make it impossible for you (working in full sun, not cooperating, etc.) but when those types of situations occur, do you know the best techniques/methods to turn out some acceptable images?
I'm starting to do weddings and my camera of choice is the 50D because I love the crop sensor's reach...however, my next upgrade will be a Full Frame...and I'll be using BOTH equally! :) You'll need loads more then this but what I'm trying to say is "Do you know the advantages of having both a crop and full frame camera?".
However, I'm seeing a trend in the wedding industry.... the customers want more for their $$$, they want the rights to their own images, they want every single picture to be retouched, etc. They are not photographers and have no idea of the time involved "after" we get done capturing their wedding... What they see is "Ok, I got this photographer for 5 hrs, she gets $100/hr, that's a lot!". The customers need to be educated! I wish it was that easy, but there's a lot more that goes on behind the scenes.
I had a couple ask me to bring my gear with me when I did a wedding consultation with them. They wanted me to take a couple of pictures of them so that they could determine if I knew how to use my camera or not. I was so impressed by them! I was tickled to death that they asked this (some of you might have gotten annoyed by this request) but I praised them! I took a couple of pictures and sent them one via email as a web-sized watermarked image. They liked what they saw and booked me! They were a bit more educated about photography then the average consumer so, talking technical terms with them was easier and it made a bit more sense to them :-).
ok....well enough said... I'm off to buy David's book! :) FINALLY!
David, you know how to fire up people! :) LOVE IT!!!! What an awesome post!
Alright I have to comment again since a lot of you got a little annoyed that David bashed the Canon XT, etc... this is NOT a wedding camera, PERIOD!! Yes, it's a decent camera and it takes great pictures in the right conditions and environment but it's high ISO is lousy (anything past 400 is poor and you know you'll get as high as 1600 for low lighting weddings!) and the low 8MP doesn't leave a whole lot of room for cropping and to stay at 300dpi , you won't get any larger then 8"x10" prints without starting to lose the DPI and that's without doing any cropping! I don't know about you but although I'm pretty good at getting decent crops on camera, I always have to adjust a tad more in photoshop only because I'm so darn picky..and yup, I lose image size a little....so, the Canon XT, XTI, XSI, etc aren't full-time wedding cameras and shouldn't be! They are great little cameras but if you are going to do loads of weddings, PLEASE reconsider your gear ASAP!
ReplyDeleteI've shot a wedding as a second photographer with my Canon XT, and although I turned out some pretty good pics, none could be blown very big...I got frustrated and not long after I got my Canon 50D.
The 50D has it's advantages v.s. the full frames...but do you all know what those are?!?!? If you don't, ..start studying a bit more and you'll find out why having both a crop camera (a decent one) and a full frame in your camera bag would be VERY beneficial for you.
Also, the fact that she didn't know how fast her 70-300mm lens was, that alone SCREAMS amateur. Her attitude was HORRIBLE, just completely unprofessional and disgusting! She was extremely disrespectful to the judge and customer.
The point that David is trying to make is that there's wedding photographers out there that are tarnishing the industry for the rest of you and it's FRUSTRATING! You cannot re-shoot a wedding. I understand that sometimes, the customer will make it impossible for you (working in full sun, not cooperating, etc.) but when those types of situations occur, do you know the best techniques/methods to turn out some acceptable images?
I'm starting to do weddings and my camera of choice is the 50D because I love the crop sensor's reach...however, my next upgrade will be a Full Frame...and I'll be using BOTH equally! :) You'll need loads more then this but what I'm trying to say is "Do you know the advantages of having both a crop and full frame camera?".
However, I'm seeing a trend in the wedding industry.... the customers want more for their $$$, they want the rights to their own images, they want every single picture to be retouched, etc. They are not photographers and have no idea of the time involved "after" we get done capturing their wedding... What they see is "Ok, I got this photographer for 5 hrs, she gets $100/hr, that's a lot!". The customers need to be educated! I wish it was that easy, but there's a lot more that goes on behind the scenes.
I had a couple ask me to bring my gear with me when I did a wedding consultation with them. They wanted me to take a couple of pictures of them so that they could determine if I knew how to use my camera or not. I was so impressed by them! I was tickled to death that they asked this (some of you might have gotten annoyed by this request) but I praised them! I took a couple of pictures and sent them one via email as a web-sized watermarked image. They liked what they saw and booked me! They were a bit more educated about photography then the average consumer so, talking technical terms with them was easier and it made a bit more sense to them :-).
ok....well enough said... I'm off to buy David's book! :) FINALLY!
David, you know how to fire up people! :) LOVE IT!!!! What an awesome post!
David, TWO THUMBS UP to Pam's comments!! I couldn't agree more. To the earlier question posted about his indecision to purchase your book or not; I say most definitely DO!!
ReplyDeleteI've been photographing weddings for over 15 years, started with film, and I have David's book and continue to learn and gain much insight from his extended knowledge. To miss out on this easy-to-read guide would be a real shame. Do you really believe you have nothing more to learn, especially from David who (or is it whom) has been in the wedding photography business SUCCESSFULLY for over 30 years?!?
David was that really you writing that column? Doesn't sound like you at all. I saw that video on another forum and thought the photographer was not very professional; however, the bride should have done her homework! Your column today made me add a tagline to my site "It's not the camera. It's the cameraman!" So thank you for the inspiration
ReplyDeleteCould David Ziser shoot a beautiful wedding with a Rebel? Absolutely. But would he put his reputation on the line week after week, showing up with a Rebel? Hardly. It's an amateur camera. Compared to a 50D it isn't as durable, the high ISOs aren't as clean, the manual controls are slower to use and the camera, overall, is less responsive. A professional can work around these limitations, yes...but why in the world would they, if they claim this to be their profession? Do you claim to be a professional photographer? Are your clients less important to you than Mr. Ziser's are to him? Thank goodness athletes don't have this mentality, arguing the merits of budget safety equipment because they figure it's "good enough".
ReplyDeleteMr. Ziser is simply sharing his knowledge and trying to elevate your understanding of professionalism. Those that understand this will benefit greatly from this post.
Seems like the intention of this post was to provoke thought and make each of us answer the question "Is the way I do business as professional as it should be?".
ReplyDeleteThe camera model comes up because of the video, but the gist of David's point is: If you are using a non-professional level camera, walmart photo processing and delivering images in a parking lot is this what you yourself would expect when paying for a professional?
Regardless of gear, why not take it as a challenge to improve?
A note to Pam: You really don't need to resort to name-calling. "Whiners," really??? How professional is that???
ReplyDeleteWow... times must really be tough for the "so called" professionals. Seems like when the industry changes the "professionals" start whining and picking on equipment vs. photographer's ability. Come on admit it you can't keep up with the market... not everyone can afford a Landrover... some folks may only afford a Yugo.... and when the market gets tight more folks start to buy Yugo's...
ReplyDeleteIt is the photographer not the equipment. I remember when "professionals" had a problem if you shot 35mm... had to have medium format.... ha... now it is the sensor type... ha
Very disappointing posting from David. Especially since he hawks his stuff like crazy.... maybe he should restrict his books and stuff to only those with the high end cameras...
Stop whining.... it is really unbecoming of a "professional"....
Few points:
ReplyDeleteThere's no Q about the fact that anyone can buy a camera, lens, (maybe flash) and shoot a wedding for $400 - yes that cheapens the market, devalues the art and hurts people who were/are in this business for a long run.
There's NOTHING wrong with starting out using a rebel as an assistant BUT being a primary shooter, that camera has to be a backup, NOT primary body. Lenses, personally, I love 18-200 glass and since I 99.9% of the time shoot b/n 5.6-11, that glass covers 99.99% of the job for me. I just boost internal sharpens a drop and VOLA :)
The judge, asked few simple Qs that "professional photographer" wasn't able to answer. One was "what f-stop were you shooting at?" a PRO, or anyone who is charging $ for their work MUST know his equipment, its limitations, optimal abilities, etc etc, SOMETHING that photog on the show knew NOTHING about. Thus, it serves her right to pay up as much as she did.
David, your post is a 50/50 ... many who are IN THIS BUSINESS side with you and many who think they are in the business, side against you.
Personally, rebels, lower-end Nikon bodies, are bodies that should be left in the camera bag and taken out in OH-SHIT situations.
David, this video shows exactly what is happening all over the country. Shoot and burn. I am not (by trade) a wedding photographer, in fact photography is not my bread and butter. One of my employees ( I own a restaurant)paid a guy 1600.00 to shoot her weeding with a 400.00 camera and they were terible. I have 2 D3 and 1 D3s a D300 and practically every lens Nikon makes. I have shot a few weddings for my friends and they turned out good. I have been shooting 40 years and I can tell you it pisses me off to see someone charge 1600.00 to shoot a crappy wedding. I have some great photos and have been published since 1971 numerous times but this video tells it all! Kudos to this person for suing the so called pro wedding photographer.
ReplyDeleteYES!! Thanks!! A true professional does not give a client Wal Mart prints. There are way too many people calling themselves "pro's" that are rookies. It has cheapened our industry.
ReplyDeleteI also find this post atypical for Mr. Ziser.
ReplyDeletethe XT is a VERY old camera in technology years. Today's Rebels are absolutley fantatic cameras! Any photographer that knows their craft can shoot with an XTi, XSi, T1i or T2i and get amazing results. Use a proper lens, know your lighting, know your equipment, etc.
Fast glass isn't always necessary either if someone is skilled at using their 580EX speedlight with their Rebel.
It isn't the camera alone. Like I said, this post is very atypical for Mr. Ziser.
With that being said, I'm still a huge Ziser fan and I love love love this blog!
I think that judgements made solely on the equipment are asinine. David does a great job at teaching to the Rebel crowd so I think the wording in the blog could have and should have been made more positively. So if you want to be a professional blogger, you are going to have to do the "pro" thing and speak in positive terms.
ReplyDeleteGreat books by the way, I am enjoying the latest one thoroughly.
This blog is called digitalPROtalk. I'm not a PRO so I guess I can't read the blog anymore. Shame on me.
ReplyDeleteto all these reble 'pro' wedding shooters...if you ever ordered a limousine and a fiat punto arrived at your house driven by a chaueffer that can drive both a high end limo and a jalopy, would you complain?
ReplyDeleteyou totally and completley destroy the reputation of the true pro photographers who treat wedding photography with respect and the responsibility it deserves. their commitment to deliver the ebst results is reflected int he investment they make in their equipment. does mr reble wedding shooter show up with 2 or even 3 bodies, back up flashes and storgae and extra batteries? like hell they do.
i am getting somewhat sick of these idiotic people who say it's not the gear it's the photographer..i wonder if they all own and shoot withkodak brownies ? if not, then why not??? i don't think so...
please dont confuse shooting pictures of your kids and little league teams with your rebles as the same as capturing the memories of a very special day for a couple getting married. they are 2 very unique and different occasions and need different mindests and responsibilities and very different techniques AND TOOLS. you could probably dig foundations for a new house build with a teaspoon if you desired, but it's probably easier with a digger...guess what a construction company would use???
All I can ask is, "You wouldn't have asked Michelangelo di Lodovico Buonarroti Simoni to create the scenes from Genesis on the ceiling of the Sistine Chapel with Crayola markers, would you?"
ReplyDeleteI mean sure, he probably could have rocked it even with the markers, because he was incredibly talented at what he did... but that's not really the point now, is it? He was hired to do a job with, what was at the time, the best materials for his trade.
David is *so* right in being disappointed in those who feel like professionals with entry-level equipment. As a client I expect the photographer I hire to be serious about their work, and as such I expect (especially when they're making $1300 a pop and shooting 'hundreds of weddings') that they have enough pride in their trade to use the best equipment available at the time. I would have felt insulted if my wedding photographer had shown up with a lower level camera than I own to shoot my special day. And I'm sure there are a multitude of brides out there that feel the same. I mean really... you're making how much at every wedding you shoot and you can't afford to buy a better lens? ...REALLY??
When I shell out the kind of money that photographers ask for their professional skills (and regardless of what you think, to many people it is A LOT), I expect not only professional results, but I expect that they are going to use professional materials to match the skills that I picked them for in the first place. Some of you may not feel you need those high-end lenses and camera bodies, but it can show *such* a lack of commitment to your work showing up with equipment that is a decade old... especially in a world where technology is such a dominating factor in our society. I'm not saying that one should completely abandon their favourite camera bodies and lenses (I myself still have my old Olympus OM-1 and a slew of lenses that my grandfather gave to me that I use on a regular basis... on my own time.) But there is a time and place to use those sentimental pieces... perhaps a time when you have the spare minutes to set up and shoot at your leisure? There are few people who can seriously defend their right to use their old D10s and older/cheaper cameras... but those people have *earned* the right to use that equipment. One amazing photograph doesn't make you a worthy enough to be around the industry's giants... any idiot can point a camera and get a lucky shot. My 3-year-old cousin did it.
I know that some of you may feel this is too much to ask of a photographer, but quite frankly, if you're as serious about your work as you claim, you'll invest in your equipment and show your potential clientele that you really do deserve to be where you are.. and that you deserve the compensation that you'll be given.
That's my piece. Agree with it or not, I think many photographers out there need to seriously consider their place in the photography industry... because lord only knows how long it will be before we have toddlers picking up Crayola markers and calling themselves the next Michelangelo.
This is an interesting take on the video of the photographer getting blasted in court:
ReplyDeletehttp://www.lighting-essentials.com/throwing-other-photographers-under-the-bus-may-be-great-fun-but-is-it-a-good-thing/
I need to have a sign made up,"we help orphan brides"
ReplyDeleteLooking through the feedback here, I actually find it laughable that some people would be 'upset' that a photographer shows up to a wedding with a Rebel.
ReplyDeleteAs if today's Rebels can't take nice pictures? A photographer that knows their equipment can get just as good photos with their Rebel was with an XXD camera. So what if it has less of a burst rate?
For pictures 8x10 and less, you'd be hard pressed to figure out the camera model (or brand) by looking at the final result. Don't be so high and mighty with your 'fancy and expensive' cameras. As stated by countless others, Today's Rebels surpass yesterdays 20D and 30D, which were 'fine proffessional cameras'.
Are people really that shallow to think that a skilled photographer can't shoot a wedding with a Rebel? The 40D is that much better? Really? the 50D is so much better? Really? can you tell a difference in the final prints? Really? It ain't like digging a foundation with a spoon as one poster suggested above.
A 70-200L doesn't make nice photos on a Rebel? Really? the 50 1.4 doesn't make nice wedding photos on a rebel? Really? why? because the Rebel is smaller?
I just can't understand the people that post that you can't be a skilled proffesional with a Rebel. We need to get over the "gear supremecy". It doesn't do anyone any good.
"i am getting somewhat sick of these idiotic people who say it's not the gear it's the photographer..i wonder if they all own and shoot withkodak brownies ? if not, then why not??? i don't think so..."
ReplyDeleteGuess what??? It's the gear AND the photographer!!! More name calling?!?!? Gee whiz, where did the professionalism go?
David is a master of self promotion. This kind of post shows that. If this wasn't a hot button subject, David would have found something else that is equally thought provoking. I find it funny that a few of the folks have decided to tell us what David was thinking when he wrote this post-wonder if they know what I am thinking right NOWW!!!????
ReplyDeleteNow my opinion- The quality of the camera is important, but ultimately it is a tool. Place the tool in the hands of a skilled craftsman or a talented apprentice and the results will be good to great. Could Michelangelo created his works with crayons? No, but I’ll bet they would be some damn fine refrigerator drawings. Put a Kodak instamatic in the hands of David Ziser, Joe McNally, David Hobby, Scott Kelby or any other talented photographer and you will get the results. They would have worked angles, lights, motion and a 1000 other variables into the equation and give the bride nice pictures. Now, switch it around- give a NiCanon 1dMK9 with a 200 mp sensor and a rack of speedlights and radio poppers to a person with very limited skills and knowledge and your are going to get some really great, sharp, SNAPSHOTS. It is up to the craftsman/artist/photographer to know how to use the tools that they have. This issue has been beaten for a long time. What everyone seems to want to be is “the” photographer that books the best and biggest most expensive wedding where the bride will want to buy all 500 shots custom framed at 16x20. And there are folks that cater to those folks. But what about the couple struggling to put the wedding together with a very limited budget. This may be wedding number 5 and all they want is the vows and the reception shot. Are these folks to be told “no” because they are not looking for a 5 figure layout? The ”amateurs” that are being tossed under the bus do serve a market segment. These folks deserve good work, whether it is with a medium format , a Nikon, Pentax or Canon. Did the bride deserve good work? YES! Could the photographer done a better job with different equipment? Who knows. Maybe if she was shooting fast glass in machine gun mode she could have gotten a few good one. It was the photograhers fault for not be educated
I would venture a guess that at some point all of you have showed your work and the person viewing says “ wow those are good! Your camera takes amazing pictures”
Yes, it’s the camera……
And I do wonder if in the future we will need to send or equipment list in for approval befiore we can by a Zumbrell, of a wedding dvd or even attend a Ziser workshop. And it isnt just David-all the folks who make a living showing the unwashed masses how to get a great shot should think before pissing on the hand that feeds your family.
David! Where is your Medium Format Camera P65+ Digital back.
ReplyDeleteThose lousy APSC canon cameras are just soo unproffessional! Pony up the 60K + and become a Real proffessional ;-)
You are spot on about people not using the correct equipment to shoot weddings. Along with a proper camera they must also invest in quality professional lenses and flash units. I don't suggest that they purchase the most expensive equipment but to own and use equipment that allows them to control the light and situation.
ReplyDeleteComposition plays a very important part of shooting weddings but the photographer must know his equipment and it's limitations.
I have two thoughts on this topic. First I am studying and working hard to learn how to shoot great portraits and weddings during my spare time when not working. I am using every resource I can get my hands on, but time and time again I go on forums and read post after post from absolutely arrogant "professional" photographers who deride and belittle people who are just honestly trying to learn for asking a question. I have been reading book after book, magazine interview after magazine interview and it seems to me the pros want us to buy their books and videos but they don't want us entering the market. I have to admit, I have been really turned off by alot of the garbage I have been reading from these "pros". Even many of the posts in this thread are arrogant and condescending towards "newbies".
ReplyDeleteSecondly, I personally have top of the line Nikon gear, both bodies and glass, that I have invested over $25K in acquiring. I am taking classes and workshops to learn, but I recognize where I am skill level wise and would not yet accept a paying gig for a wedding. With that said my nephew, who is getting married this fall asked me to shoot his wedding. I said no three times before giving in and agreeing. The reason I agreed? Well, after telling me about the three different "pros" he called who wouldn't even talk to him without a retainer fee of anywhere from $1,000 to $1,600 I realized that there is a gap in the market for good quality wedding photography at a price young couples who don't have alot of money can afford (unlike the ones we see repeatedly highlighted in the various photography magazine where the budgets for photography are anywhere from $10K to $30K.) And once again, the arrogance of the community ticked me off. So I am studying and practicing like crazy so that I can deliver him awesome wedding photos. Is the community encouraging me when I ask questions on forums? No, they are deriding me as a hack who has no business agreeing to shoot my nephew's wedding. Yes there are people like the woman in the video who have no business shooting weddings, but I think the industry is so afraid of competition that they are doing themselves a disservice in how they treat this subject.
Years ago I worked for Kodak. It was the time when the film to digital transition was occurring and instead of embracing it Kodak made it their number one strategic objective to "extend the benefits of film". They spent all their time and energy trying to stave off obsolesence and have themselves become obsolete. I think the so called pros in the wedding business would do well to learn a thing or two from the downfall of Kodak.
By the way David, I love your work and your book. They are great assets to me as I learn.
This has been a topic of discussion in our house for awhile. We've been photographing weddings for 3 1/2 years now. But I also understand that I have keep on learning, to never stop. To understand the equipment, to upgrade the equipment whenever possible. But we also handle ourselves in a professional manner, no WalMart proofs, no deliveries in Wamart parking lots. My chief beef with the JBB video was, what was the bride really expecting? Did the photos really not match the portfolio shown? And where was the contract and what did it say?
ReplyDeleteI used that 70-300 lens on my rebel in a Catholic church last year and got some awesome pics of the bride. I use the rebel because it fits my poor arthritic hand better. Do I want to upgrade to a
7D? Sure. But it wouldn't be fiscally repsonsible right now. My husband uses a 40D. Our backups are older, but more than adequate and we have happy customers. I think it's combination of camera/lens/photographer. Are you happy with your work? Is your client happy with your work? That's the important thing, always!
OK let's have a contest.... unprofessional camera vs. pro equipment... let's pair up... pro vs not-so-pro and shoot the same scene...(at the same time)... then post the pics and guess which is which...
ReplyDeleteThis really is a stupid posting from David... we can find "crap" in any industry... the person is unprofessional and it has nothing to do with the equipment.
If Divinci used crayon's we would all be marveling over Crayola or Wal-Mart brand.... By the way do you know that Divinci used old goat-hair brushes... how unprofessional when there were much better (ie. more professional) brushes available..
PS.. I just paid the rent by shooting two "shoot and burn" $500 weddings this weekend... (and I did it all with a "pro" camera)...now how is that for a twist... but my landlord is happy...
Wow, you got hammered for that one!
ReplyDeleteGreat to finally get to meet you and get a copy of your new book!
WPPI Rocked the house this year.
Best wishes!
As a long-term reader of the blog, I can hardly find the words to express my disappointment. So far I admired you as a true professional and upright person with good ethics, Mr. Ziser, but after this post I am not so sure about that anymore. Are you honestly attacking the very clients most of your digital learning products cater to?!
ReplyDeleteI want to comment on three passages in particular:
"So to those who cheered the use on the Rebel as a wedding camera, I suggest you think twice before booking you next wedding." -- gear-snobbism does not good. Haven't you recently used a 50D with a 18-200mm lens? Is that exactly much better than a Rebel XT?
"She mentioned that in her early days of shooting she used a Canon Rebel. About 25% of the room cheered her remark - they must be Canon Rebel shooters too - at least that was my impression of their response." -- maybe they just cheered because the audience appreciated how much she had learned and what a long way she had come from Rebel to 1D?
"This whole attitude; "I've got my Canon Rebel or Nikon D50 and some business cards. I've got my Facebook page, I like shooting pictures, I've got my blog, etc." -- this exactly how a new business would start out. In fact this is the very strategy that professionals educate to those interested in starting a photography business, for examples see your blog archive or JStar's early blog entries.
To use your words: "Food for thought" ;-)
I have just begun exploring photography as a business. In my educational process I have looked to this blog and others to not only learn proper technique but also gain insight into the professional mindset and what it takes to be successful. If you want to be successful at anything it sure helps learning from someone who has been around the block. This weekend I shot my first on site bridal session with a rebel t1i with 70-200 2.8l lens shooting my flash off camera through a zumbrela with a wireless transmitter. Yes the lens cost twice as much as the body. I used techniques learned from this blog as well as David's video. My bride was thrilled with my results. She does not have resources to pay $100's for this service nor do I have the experience, or track record to charge that price ( but I will in the future). This transaction was a win for me (I gained valuable experience). She will receive some great prints (I could not have pulled off without the information learned here) that she can afford. This is an incredible resource for someone just starting out
ReplyDeleteThat just shows that not a camera creates a picture, but human.
ReplyDeleteMy wife (as a second shooter) shoots rebel (with "L" glass) and often enough she gets surprising shots.
Yet, going to TV court wont help anyone's reputation in Photo Business.
Here's another side of a coin:
http://www.lighting-essentials.com/throwing-other-photographers-under-the-bus-may-be-great-fun-but-is-it-a-good-thing/
Bottom line, the wedding day is ones in a life time day and we'll need to be prepared for anything. That's the nature and the biggest difference between a wedding photog and let's say a studio photog. Best of luck!
Maks
More food for thought:
ReplyDeleteThe Canon 18-200 was a "kit lens" for the 50D.
I'm just sayin' :D
Please keep up the great blog! It is a tremendous resource for the Photography world! Thank you for all of your hard work!
Hey gang!
ReplyDeleteLast Saturday at the wedding I used a paint stick (Thanks to David!) well, a paint stick to hold my flash and an umbrella. But hey! Does it make me a pro painter as well?
Any thoughts?
I can understand David's "complaint" about using non-professional gear, but I feel the complaint shouldn't be about gear, but about training the public. However, I am not sure why he is biting the hand that feeds, so to speak. He (like many others) do presentations, books, etc that are targeted towards teaching people about photography. I am pretty sure most of his income comes from these sales. His Digitial Wake Up Call tour had over 10,000 in attendance. I believe the fee was $75 per person, so he raised roughly $750,000 on attendees alone, not to mention book sales, advertisement dollars, etc. Yes, there was a significant investment made traveling, reserving space, etc. But I think it is safe to assume, that many of the big names make much more money in things other than weddings.
ReplyDeleteNow, many of the people who came to these workshops are just starting out and wanting to learn as much as they can. I am sure that the vast majority own entry level cameras such as the Rebel, so its going to be interesting to see his response to this, seeing how many people are upset about his comments.
Now, with that said, his argument is valid. He may not feel the same pinch as some of the readers will, since he is targeting a completely different demographic (think large budget weddings), but he can see the effects it is having on the industry. How many established photography studios closed within the last year? I can think of several in my particular area. It is not because they do not do good work, it is because the budgets of most weddings in the area and across the country have plummeted substantially. Unfortunately, photography is one of the things to first get cut from a budget. In comes the "Rebel" guy who can shoot the wedding $500-$1000 cheaper than the established studio. If the budget for the photography is reduced, then the bride will look for a cheaper option. "The work may not be as good, but the "Rebel" guy will shot a ton of images.. surely one or two will come out good.. and at $1000 cheaper, why not" thinks the bride.
Now comes the question of skill vs. camera. In a wedding environment, will a Rebel t2i produce results far less pleasing than a 7d or a 1d3? Not really. The t2i is a mini clone of a 7d (pretty much the same sensor, half the price). The High-ISO capabilities are similar to the 7d. The focusing is not quite as good, particularly with moving subjects, but in a mostly static event (such as a wedding), they will operate similarly. The real difference is the buffer rate, shutter FPS, and build quality. They will produce very similar images.
I think the fault here is not the equipment, but the value that is placed on photography services. Yes, many people consider starting a business because they got the cool new camera. But at some point, they have to get a client base. They get people who do not generally value photography all the much. If they did, then they would know and see the differences between a beginner and an established pro.
That is where our job begins. We need to be able to educate the public as to why they should hire a pro. It should have nothing to do with walmart (by the way, they have the same printers as many pro labs), or cameras, but with skill and experience. They need to know why they need to hire someone who has shot hundreds of weddings over someone just starting, but much cheaper. They need to know why they need someone who has skill, as opposed to someone who just pushes a button every few seconds.
If we cannot educate our clients about the reasons they need a pro, then we have no right to complain.
Next time you visit your doctor, take a look at the kind of stethoscope he/she is using. Is it the $15 nurse's model or the $150 Littmann cardiology scope? Now decide what influence the type of scope will have on your relationship with your physician.
ReplyDeleteI appreciate this post to the blog. And at the same time it scares me to no end on how some people judge only on the equipment that is used. I too started off with a Rebel XT and have now stepped up to the 50D and a 70 - 200mm F4. What scares me so about the attitude of what equipment you shoot with is that the person behind the camera is the "artist" and is the one taking the actual image; while the camera and equipment are part of the tools that we as photographers use to create what we see. I agree the higher end cameras do take a better image and you (the photographer)have more room to work and create with. I have and still am experiencing the closed mindedness of some of the pros in my area since I am supposedly stealing their work from them. I am in prcess of becoming a Certifed Professional Photographer being part of PPA and taking classes to futher my education and technique. I have also taken business classes on how to run a business and be a professional at anything and everything I do. The true pros within the photogrpahy profession are the ones that are willing to share what they have learned and pass it along and bring the others up to their stanards instead the other way around. I can only believe that one day I will be able to share what I have learned and pass it along to others that are looking to photography as a career.
ReplyDeleteI have mixed feelings about this. I used to love using a Tiger Woods analogy before his, er, problems. But it illustrated my feelings on ability vs equipment. Give me the finest set of Calloway or Titleist Golf Clubs and the most expensive titanium golf balls and I will continue to hack my way around a golf course without a one iota of improvement to my game. Now give Tiger Woods a $50.00 set of Spalding clubs from Walmart and I'd wager good money he could still shoot a round of golf under par. Yes, equipment can affect the quality of one's work but only if they already have a strong foundation and understanding of their craft, game, etc. Ability first, equipment second.
ReplyDeleteI've been a big fan of this blog for sometime as David gives some great advice and can talk a lot of sense.
ReplyDeleteBut I'm afraid this is not the case with this post. Everybody has to start somewhere and they cannot always afford the best equipment. Anyway, David, isn't your blog aimed a budding photographers wanting to get into the trade, especially wedding photography?
I am a 'Pro' and I visit this site to educate myself further and pick up tips. Lately all I get is... Buy this book, join this seminar, let me plug this piece of equipment that is paying me for advertising...
ReplyDeleteAnd if you dont have the proper equipment that I recommend you use, then you shouldnt consider yourself a 'pro'
fyi: I shoot with 7D's
It has stirred up a heated discussion, good arguments on both sides. Having said that why are the majority of heated comments from anonymous posters, do they not have the conviction to add there name to the post.
ReplyDeleteIts the photographer that creates the image, but seeing many people on a tight budget being openly ripped off by backyarders as we call them in New Zealand really is upsetting, it does nothing for the industry at all.
Here is a monkey wrench thrown in! Ken Rockwell's has the same link and here is what he said.
ReplyDeleteFor those of you outside the USA, remember that this "Judge Joe Brown" show is comedy- and fight-themed TV show set in a pretend courtroom; it's not real. The show is for entertainment only, although Judge Joe Brown is a UCLA grad who has served as a judge elsewhere. Go Bruins!
"I've got my Canon Rebel or Nikon D50 and some business cards. I've got my Facebook page, I like shooting pictures, I've got my blog, etc. , etc., etc. I must be a professional."
ReplyDeleteI hope someone would not think of themselves as an actual 'pro' until they fulfill the definition. BEING PAID TO DO IT. That is where the problem is. Someone may offer a good 'amateur' photographer money for a wedding and they say, 'sure, why not'. So they step into a pro world before they become a 'real' pro.
However, if someone educates themselves on all the steps necessary to pull off a huge task of photographing a wedding, then why not! Even if they dont have the most up-to-date equipment. All I hear in this market is "You have no idea what youre getting into" or "This is a once in a lifetime event and you arent 'pro' enough to shoot one". What ever happened to positive reinforcement??? I was petrified to shoot a wedding. All I heard about was the horror stories. Then I met a wedding photographer who I was trying to intern with, he looked at my portfolio, and said with a smile 'GO FOR IT! You know what youre doing and they are a blast. Just do what you do.' End of story. That is all I had to hear.
I feel like most pro wedding photog's hate the way the market is going because sales are down, and who do they blame? Not the camera manufacturers who are making inexpensive solid DSLR's but the novice photog who bought one. Welcome to the 21st century. The days of being pro meant you spent thousands of dollars on equipment are done. GET OVER IT & STEP YOUR GAME UP.
In closing, the last time I checked, running a blog like this one is considered a business where the readers are the actual clients. Even if they are not paying for a service, they are essentially driving the site. And the first rule of good business is that the customer is always right. Well since the 'customers' on this blog are mostly photog's I would recommend putting an end to telling them their cameras are inadequate. I would encourage them to get the best out of their equipment by educating themselves further about their gear, not laugh in their face for assuming that their Canon Rebel is a good photographing tool.
That is all.
The Mamiya C33 was fine for film
ReplyDeleteThe Rebel is fine for digital
If your good your good if you suck you suck
Let the free market place determine who stays in business
I am not a professional photog but have followed with interest. I do run my own business as an Architectural designer so I still have to deal with the mix of art and technology on a daily basis. My two cents - to me it's all about attitude and this is what I think David is trying to say. If you are going to bring a profesional attitude to anything, you are not going to use the cheapest tools you can get away with. If you expect your clients to take you seriously, take it seriously yourself. I get it that the gear doesn't make the photographer, but neither does a poor attitude. I think having enough confidence in your own abilities to invest in the right gear will set you apart on it's own. I wonder how many of these "rebel pros" think to themselves "at least if it doesn't work out, I haven't wasted too much money".
ReplyDeleteAs for the comments that "digital rebels are better than anything digital from 2000", the market rightfully only cares about what the standard is right now. To try and convince your clients otherwise is ripping them off.
David, your position surprises me very much. It seems completely at odds with your book and your blog. All I need to be a pro is expensive gear? I think not.
ReplyDeleteI challenge you to look at any "professional" image and tell me what camera was used. Your brand is the image you produce, not the tools you use. In Iraq, I carried my M-16 in a Pelican case. Does that make me a sharp-shooter?
I don't care.. I still think a Canon XT or similar model IS NOT a wedding camera.. no matter how good you are at taking pics! :-) The better you, the MORE important the gear becomes....
ReplyDeleteReally, the biggest point is the fact that a lot of wedding photographers out there on cragslist do NOT know their equipment, cannot shoot in manual mode ..hell don't even know what shutter speed, aperture and ISO means!?!?
Like Bryants Photography said, we need to educate the customer/clients. :-)
The word "Professional" in photography can simply mean a person who earns at least 51% of his/her living being a photographer. It does not in any way, shape or form allude to his/her skill sets. I do believe that after shooting hundreds of weddings as the "Pro Photographer" alluded to she would have already naturally upgraded to a Pro body and lens. By not doing so suggests she is either very cheap or uninspired to grow and learn. She did not even know a Fast lens when the judge asked her. On the other hand, although I would not do it myself, a Canon Rebel (especially the newer ones) can take excellent pictures with great IQ provided a 'good' glass is used. Lastly, it still comes down to the person behind the camera and lens. I would BET that if David Ziser was provided the Canon Digital Rebel with the stock 18-55mm lens, the bride would have had tears of joy after seeing the final results!
ReplyDeleteSome things haven't changed. You still get what you pay for. People who misrepresent themselves will be discovered. Business deals made without contracts wind up in court. Professionals are expected to deliver pro results and consumers need to do their homework, not take revenge for their remorse after deciding that cheap is better. But a couple questions too:
ReplyDeleteAre pro-ams with entry level bodies charging $1000 for weddings really taking business from higher priced pros? Would those brides really have paid 2-5 times more if the cheap wasn't available?
Isn't this as much about consumers of art and photo services terribly unaware of the real cost and actual value of pro photography?
Has the lack of art instruction in our schools made for less informed cosumers with respect to art?
As many have said, this discussion ought to have much less to do with what camera body was used, and more to do with the harder questions. Gear does not make art or artists.
OK, The video is very damning..so it's worth the entertainment. However, David you often come across in many of your posts as an elitist..I'm not saying you don't know what you are talking about because you do! My work is because of your work and I'm glad for it. But, for those who don't know what was going on in the video perhaps it would have been better to explain so those who feel they are professionals could understand why they have a long way to go.
ReplyDeleteThat being said...I encourage my clients to have an engagement session with me before their wedding (I don't give it away free because I want them to have a vested interest in the process) but I do use a discount on it as a booking incentive. had this bride and groom done that they would have seen the work ahead of time and been able to head of an ugly situation.
No if I was the photographer..there would be no way I would have gone to court. That was a career killer..but it's obvious she did not care that her career has just ended. And I can't think she would have been good at all.
Folks..that's why blogs are so important. Yes, it's easy to put your best work on a site..but your potential brides and grooms will continually check out your latest work...that gives them and it should give you comfort.
Now David, I do employ your techniques at weddings but there is no way I could charge your rates...it would not fly around where I live. About 60% of my brides opt for an album (which I use zookbinders) but the other 40% are scrapbookers. There is a HUGE market of people who have made albums all their lives and want to make their own...so I think one needs to be aware of what many other brides and grooms want. I have yet to have one bride not make prints or an album...I don't do ANY paid advertising and I am still booked at the rates I want. I scour the trade mags and attend conferences...I just think that the whole paradigm is shifting as far as types of products offered verses wanted. I have more and more brides who opt not to get an album but would rather purchase the jpgs AND get custom created canvas collages that I create using Simply Canvas.
Yes, no argument here about how horrible the video is and how very very unprofessional it all was..but I urge you to blog not out of anger but out of an eduction...
-Holly (Life's Joyful Expressions)
I love the information you provide in this blog, but you're argument about professionalism relating to type of camera is laughable given that you are completely fine with using consumer grade lenses.
ReplyDeleteWhy do working pros worry about "Amateur Anne"? Our price lists are designed to filter out low-end customers that seek out "Amateur Anne".
ReplyDeleteIf any of you are targeting the low-end of the market and are hurting, shame one you!
I agree 100% that equipment does matter. My studio specializes in portraits. My lens selection is specific for portraiture. I don't own a fast mid-zoom lens.
On the few wedding weddings I do book, I make sure to hire a second shooter that can cover the mid-zoom range that I'm ill-equipped for.
I will not work without limitations on a wedding. You're putting yourself, your business, your reputation at enormous risk for failure.
When you decide to step-up your price list, please do yourself and your client a favor by investing in the proper gear.
The ability to shoot clean at and above ISO 1600 and faster than f4.5, with multiple strobes all produce real, tangible, PROFESSIONAL results.
I think everyone is missing the fact that not only were the photos not of the quality that was displayed when she meet the client but her behavior on the show was less then professional and she clearly did not have any working knowledge. Those questions the judge was asking is something every photog should be able to answer before they shoot weddings.
ReplyDeleteeveryone a pro these days,i got $600 and all i had was a 300d and a kit lens, the bride was delighed and gave me an extra $30, so now i have a website and all. my next wedding is next week and i have already increased my prices to $650.anyway all the info on how shoot weddings is on blogs everwhere. anyone can do it, well anyone with a 300d can. just press that button, lots of times:)
ReplyDeletemark
Hey David,
ReplyDeleteNothing to say here that hasn't already been said.
I am also getting a 5D Mark II next week. :)
I know that i can take very similar photos with my now 40D, with the aid of Noise Ninja, and other programs....
But I got my next 'tool' to make my upcoming future in Photography easier, just like in a year or two i will get the next upgrade equivalent.
Take it easy on us, some time in the next 20 or 30 years we will be you, probably saying the same thing to our less talented photographers.
And I will make you a bet if I could dust off my 40D then, I think I will beat the socks of those young whipper snappers, with there 200 mega pixel cameras just like you can right now with a Rebel now.
David, I must say I have not ever posted a comment here but feel compelled to do so here. first off just because everyone out there can't afford your services for their wedding gives you no right to insult less expensive photographers shooting lower grade cameras. every bride should able to have great photographs of her wedding day but most cannot even come close to affording some of the higher-end pros. when was the last time you took your overinflated ego into a poor community & offered your wedding services pro-bono. I think you need to check yourself because your image is becoming more about the money & less about the customer. this post truly concerns me.
ReplyDeleteWhen all is said and done, it really doesn't matter what we think about the subject, it's the customer who makes the final decision and in this economy price is the biggest factor they base their decission on.
ReplyDeleteAs my husband pointed out, most people don't know the differnce when it comes to the quality of the pictures they get. They're used to seeing the results from an cheaper point and shoot camera.
Like it or not we may be joining the other industries that have fallen victim to mass marketing. Look at the garment industry, and the what the big box stores have done to the little guys.
It seems that most of the comments have missed the point of David's post. -
ReplyDelete"Do you really know your gear, your lenses, your lighting? Do you really know what shots to capture at the wedding? Do you know how to handle yourself in an emergency situation like when your gear fails? Can you still capture the images? These are just a few of the questions real professionals know how to answer."
Most of the people who have commented that the Rebel is perfectly fine for weddings have not addressed these questions. It is a question of professionalism and expertise. With the proliferation of 'good enough' cheap equipment it has lowered the barrier to entry into the market. Some people come into the market ill prepared to handle the demands of a wedding day and what to do when things are challenging. The client's wedding is too big a deal to mess up and clients don't care about excuses. I hear the horror stories when couples come for consultations and they talk about their friends or siblings who chose someone to photograph their wedding who they knew was not up to the task. I was at a wedding, as a guest, in July 2009 and heard the photographer say to the couple, "So what do think we should do? Do you want some pictures with the wedding party?" What? It turns out they never talked about a plan for the day and what was going to happen when. NOT Professional- it doesn't matter what kind of equipment they had. They never forget what went wrong and how things turned out. Just because someone has a 'nice' camera does not make them a photographer or a professional. I applaud those who clearly see that line and strive to prepare themselves and their gear to take it to the next level.
Everyone does have to start somewhere. I don't think hanging out your shingle and offering to do something you don't know how to do is the best way to do it, even if you can afford pro equipment. I suggest actually getting to know a Full-time pro and asking to tag along as an assistant and really see what it is all about. I know that I am willing when people come to me and ask for the chance and I bet many pros feel the same way. That is how I started and I am glad I did because there was so much more involved than I ever imagined.
David is trying to get everyone, Rebel 'Pros' included, to make their photography better and make the industry shine. Think about it. He is successful and is sharing how he, as a professional, has made a living and creating amazing imagery. Knowing what to do and how to do it in a professional way helps everyone.
-Digital Photography in some cases has killed the wedding photography market. The most successful wedding photographer I know shoots film and this has made him more money as a result for charging for negatives and reprints. I would also argue a lot of experienced veterans that have seen a decline in sales have reverted to doing workshops to supplement there income, in turn over saturating the market with to many photographers in the wedding industry. So the where the business goes is only going to be for the ambitious.
ReplyDeleteI agree, it's not the hammer, it's the carpenter. But a few things strike me as totally unprofessional. She didn't know the speed of her two (kit) lenses. She used Wal-Mart for photo finishing! C'mon, Wal-Mart?!? I saw some good composition, but if there's blurring, how good is it?
ReplyDeleteI shoot weddings (even better now after attending some of David's seminars) and I wouldn't have Wal-Mart process my photos if I was paid $5000. I also know my lenses (all 5 that I use at weddings) AND I know that most churches are rather dim inside. I have had only 1 minister allow flash during the ceremony - and I still couldn't make myself use flash then.
Sorry, this gal is not a professional photographer.
David,
ReplyDeleteI agree with the majority of posters here -- this feels like sour grapes from someone whose style and methodology are a bit behind the times, rather than a fair assessment of the situation.
The woman in the video was clearly incompetent in a variety of ways, but that's about the photographer, not the equipment.
Yes, the digital age means there are fewer cost and technical barriers to entry -- it doesn't mean that skill doesn't matter. People have always hired crappy wedding photographers (I did, unfortunately, many years ago) and they always will.
My suggestion is that you let go of the purist "classic" mentality and realize that wedding photography has dramatically changed since you began.
Anne